Imperishable Inheritance Forum: Recent Posts

Imperishable Inheritance Forum: Recent Posts http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Imperishable Inheritance Forum: Recent Posts en Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:12:16 +0000 brmicke on "Grace vs. Works" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=23#post-142 Sun, 24 Aug 2008 16:30:31 +0000 brmicke 142@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi Trulife - Thanks for the encouraging comment - I of course give all the glory to God for whatever truth you gleaned from this article. I hope you are well and pray that all you endevors are successful. Brian brmicke on "Made Alive" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=26#post-141 Tue, 05 Aug 2008 23:57:50 +0000 brmicke 141@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ What I meant in the reply post above should include the phrase - repentance = cessation from sin. I did not mean to type --- repentance + sin. Brian brmicke on "Made Alive" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=26#post-139 Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:40:16 +0000 brmicke 139@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi Admin - I think you are referring to this verse - 2 Timothy 2:18 -- King James 2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. -- New American Standard 2 Timothy 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some. 61 To understand this it is necessary to first understand what Paul taught about the resurrection. In Philippians 3:10-12 Paul said that he was striving to attain to the resurrection from the dead, Colossians 3:1. Christians are to consider themselves as being alive from the dead, Romans 6:11. This means that He taught that the resurrection was something that was available to a Christian and something that could be attained in this life. -- New American Standard Philippians 3:10 that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death 11. in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12. Not that I have already obtained it, or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. -- New American Standard Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised up with Christ (this is the resurrection), keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. -- New American Standard Romans 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Hymenaeus and Philetus were saying that this resurrection was past. They were telling people that the resurrection that Paul said was attainable was not available any longer, 2 Timothy 2:17-18. Some versions translate the Greek word numbered 1096 in the Strong’s concordance as “past”. Other translations say that these two people were teaching that this resurrection had “already taken place”. The Greek word is in the “second perfect” tense – which infers that the resurrection was a completed action. Paul said He was still seeking this resurrection, (Philippians 3:10-12) so it is easy to understand why He was upset with those who taught that the resurrection was already finished or completed. Teaching that the resurrection has “already taken place” shows that the translators were expecting the resurrection to be a single event at one point in time in the future. This shows that the translators did not understand the biblical teaching on resurrection. Saying that the resurrection has already taken place leads the reader to think that the resurrection is no longer available. Translating this word as the King James Version and several others do, as “past” is more accurate. 62 Regardless of which way the word is translated – Hymanaeus and Philetus were telling people that the resurrection was no longer available and because of this they could not seek this resurrection from the dead. As far as your comment that I said that repentance + cessation from sin. That is not what I wrote - I wrote that the resurrection (first) involves the cessation from sin as Paul mentioned in Phillipians 3:11-12. Very good Point about the resurrection being past. Brian admin on "Made Alive" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=26#post-138 Sun, 03 Aug 2008 03:16:08 +0000 admin 138@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ While I just did a quick peruse, we definitely are "made alive" from death (Eph 2:1-10) at conversion that thought that "The Second Coming of Christ also begins at conversion and is defined as the process of Christ coming into the believer, heart" is in much error. I was just reading in 1/2 Thess that some were saying the second coming had already happened in a similar way as you describe, and Paul denounced it. It was one of the first heresies the church had to deal with, and today we call it full Preterism. Lastly, repentance does not equal a cessation from sin. I'm not even quite sure how you deduced that. brmicke on "Made Alive" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=26#post-137 Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:12:21 +0000 brmicke 137@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Made Alive This is what is happening to Christians – they are being “made alive” as they seek eternal life. This process begins at conversion and continues until the believer is conformed to the image of Christ. Most, if not all, Christians die physically before they reach Christ-likeness. This process of conformation is symbolized in Revelation 21:10 as the New Jerusalem descending from Heaven. The Second Coming of Christ also begins at conversion and is defined as the process of Christ coming into the believer, heart. The first resurrection from the dead also begins at conversion and is the process of ceasing from sin. All these spiritual events describe the formation of Christ within the believer, Colossians 1:27. -- New American Standard 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. In Christ all shall be made alive or resurrected. Every person who is “in Christ” so to speak will be “made alive”. The way they are made alive is illustrated in the following verses. -- New American Standard 1 John 5:11 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Jesus has eternal life within Himself. Those who dwell in Jesus partake of the life that Jesus has. -- New American Standard Romans 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; Jesus followers are seeking the eternal life that Jesus has. -- New American Standard 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. Jesus has come and given us understanding. -- New American Standard Colossians 1:27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Jesus gives us this understanding by indwelling the believer. The way Jesus does this is explained by the Apostle Peter in acts 3:19 - 21. -- New American Standard Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20. and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21. whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. As can be seen in this portion of scripture Jesus comes from Heaven following the restoration. In verse 19 and 20 we have just been told that Jesus comes after personal repentance. So these verses raise a question and answer it. The question is when is the restoration. The answer is that the restoration is the action we call repentance. Jesus indwells the person who seeks Him when that person repents; this repentance is the restoration spoken of in Acts 3:21. Jesus made reference to this restoration when He was speaking of John the Baptist in Matthew 17:11. -- New American Standard Matthew 17:11 And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; The Second Coming of Christ occurs when God the Father sends Jesus to dwell within a repentant person, John 14:23. -- New American Standard John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him. It is important to stay within the confines of the Bible. This means that the bible gives us the information that we need, and it all fits together in a precise manner. In this case it can be seen that the bible says in Hebrews 9:28 that the Lord comes to the world for two reasons. Once to bear sins and once for salvation. After he indwells the individual He says that He will never leave them. Now there are several places in the scriptures where Jesus is said to “come” to the believer after they have been indwelt. As the student tries to reconcile the “comings” they must be limited by the information in Hebrews 9:28. There are only two reasons Jesus comes to us. So if Jesus is said to come to a person after the initial indwelling or salvation experience mentioned in Acts 3:19-21 it has to be for the purpose of salvation. All visitations must adhere to the mandates of the Second Coming mentioned in Hebrews 9:28. Meaning that all visitations after the cross (the first coming) must be for the purpose of the person’s salvation. This subsequent “coming” is not to indwell the believer, since Jesus promised to never leave them after the initial indwelling. It therefore must be for the purpose of furthering the salvation of the person. So we can see that the Second Coming which results in the condition described as “Christ in you” or Christ indwelling the believer, is a progression in which Jesus comes into the life of the person and transforms the person from Glory to Glory, 2 Corinthians 3:18. -- New American Standard 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. The individual therefore decides when the Second Coming occurs as they choose the time of their repentance. Repentance progresses as an individual is increasingly made aware of their personal shortcomings. The Lord comes into the believer’s life in a similar progression. First Resurrection There are two resurrections spoken of in the Bible. The first is the process that is involved as a person stops sinning. The second is after physical death. Paul said in Colossians 3:1 that believers have been raised up of resurrected from the dead. -- New American Standard Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. He mentions this again and also shows that it is a process in Philippians 3:11 and 12. -- New American Standard Philippians 3:11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. -- New American Standard Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it, or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. In these verses Paul show us that He understood the resurrection to be the cessation from sin. He showed that it was a process as is the manifestation of Christ within a believer, Galatians 4:19. -- New American Standard Galatians 4:19 My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you admin on "Sex in Heaven" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=14#post-136 Mon, 26 May 2008 04:38:31 +0000 admin 136@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ @truelife: I would agree that would could conceivably do anything except sin, and it certainly is possible there will be sex such as was expected in the Garden. truelife on "Sex in Heaven" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=14#post-135 Mon, 26 May 2008 00:43:25 +0000 truelife 135@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ I think in heaven there will be no limit to what we can do. Except sin. And sex is part of the love of two spirits blessed by God joining in oness. A man and a woman representing the masculine and femenine natures becoming one. admin on "Romans 11 and "All Israel"" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=13#post-134 Wed, 14 May 2008 02:12:19 +0000 admin 134@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ @truelife: I agree whole-heartedly! truelife on "Romans 11 and "All Israel"" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=13#post-133 Wed, 14 May 2008 01:26:43 +0000 truelife 133@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ The title Israel is the title God gave to Jacob after he triumphed in his fight with an angel. "Your name will no longer be Jacob,” the man told him. “From now on you will be called Israel, because you have fought with God and with men and have won.” (Gen. 32:38). It is a name given to God's chosen people. The ones who have been loyal and obedient to God. In my view point, The title Israel doesn't have anything to do eith a particular lineage any more. The nation of Israel was the center of God's providence untill the coming of Christ. Now it is Christians who are the new Israel. Whether or not those people are descendants of Jacob does not matter. What matters is whether we are striving with God and with men and pervailing. That is our inheritad mission as Christians. truelife on "Grace vs. Works" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=23#post-132 Wed, 14 May 2008 01:18:08 +0000 truelife 132@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ I love this post and totally agree with it. brmicke on "Rapture?" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=24#post-131 Sat, 01 Mar 2008 18:56:07 +0000 brmicke 131@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ I have maintained that the scripture in question was 1 thessalonians 4:13 through 1 thessalonians 5:11. 1 Thess 4:13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 5 1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. The word “sleep” is defined by the Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:6 and 7. I have not arbitrarily decided how the word “sleep” should be used in Paul’s discussion. This understanding does not come without study. A person must get into the true meanings of the greek words used to get the whole meaning of what Paul is saying in these verses. At my homepage I have posted all of the research that I can think of to validate my reasoning about this. I have encouraged those who read this posting to refer to my homepage. This is not for my popularity, more than likely I will never even know who you are. There is a foundation to be laid before a doctrine can be formed from this discussion of Paul’s. <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/brmicke"><a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/brmicke" rel="nofollow">http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/brmicke</a> To be very brief the following is all you need to know to begin to raise questions about the “rapture” theory. Look at 1 Thess 5:6. – let us not sleep but be alert and sober. That’s it --- Paul is showing the reader how to understand this word “sleep” as He uses it in this conversation. The key to the parable is to recognize that the “sleep” He is referring to is the opposite of being alert and sober. It is really too simple. Paul gave us the key to understanding that He was not speaking about literal sleep or death. So the next step is to put a term that signifies the opposite of “alert and sober” into the rest of the conversation where this word “sleep” is used. If it then does not make sense to you I would say that further study is indicated – but remember --- you are not entitled to decide how the word “sleep” can be used either. You must use Paul’s definition just as I have. When you do this you will not be able to fit the Rapture theory into this section of scripture. If you continue to be interested after reading the postings here on this site please look into my homepage article entitled Rapture Smapture. All I ask is that when you understand this don’t attribute the definition of the word sleep to me. I have used Paul’s definition as He gave it in 1 Thessalonians 5:6. I have not gotten into an argument about how the word “sleep” is defined because as you will probably agree – my opinion is not worth a dime. But Paul certainly understood what He was talking about. brian</a> Anonymous on "Rapture?" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=24#post-130 Sat, 01 Mar 2008 15:04:54 +0000 Anonymous 130@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hey i have to say that the "sleep" you refer to is clearly a euphemism for death. Even our Lord uses this comparison. Jhn 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Jhn 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Jhn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. Clearly Paul uses this euphemism in i Thess 4:13 because he wants to soften the impact of death and for the believers to "sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." And if sleep refers to not being sober and being sinful than you introduce more problems than any stability. What about clear scriptures like; 1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. Context context, CONTEXT! Clearly the context is death. This is a comparison of us being raised from the dead with the same certainty is which Christ was raised. I totally agree with you regarding what being watchful and sober means. But sleep means death where the context is death. Those that sleep in Christ (in Cor 15:18) are the "dead in Christ" in I thess 4:16. Here are some things that will help you. First read 2 Peter 1:20 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. This is the first rule secondly approach the Word with this approach All acripture interprets itself: 1. In the vers right where its written. 2. In the context we dare not take verses out of context. Anybody could say anything from a verse out of context. 3. Where used before look other places for the occurances of greek and hebrew words 4. Unclear verses MUST be interpreted in light of the clear verses on the same subject. We cannot choose to read or oun thoughts into few difficult to understand verses while ignoring the many clear verses. 5. Get to whome sections of scripture are written to. All scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction for insruction in righteousness BUT not all is about me. I can learn from the OLD Test yet it is not about me. Even the gospel accounts contain details regarding Jesus' ministry to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Not the church. The mystery of the church was revealed to Paul later and it was kept secret. While the gospels may have been written more recently than the pauline epistles, they still contain spiritual truths unique to another administration. brmicke on "Rapture?" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=24#post-129 Sat, 16 Feb 2008 15:58:08 +0000 brmicke 129@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi Chris -- I should have added this - Paul is speaking about the condition or state of sleep and death in the same manner that He uses in Ephesians 5:14. Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, <ul> Awake thou that sleepest</ul> , and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. compare that verse to the following - 1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are <ul> asleep</ul> , that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. Brian brmicke on "Rapture?" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=24#post-128 Sat, 16 Feb 2008 15:08:39 +0000 brmicke 128@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Chris - All a person has to do if recognize that The Apostle Paul is referring to "sleep" in the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:6 and 7. He is using death as a comparitive state to that of being drunken or the condition of sinfulness. That is why it is so instructive when a person notices that the subject has not changed from chapter 4 to chapter 5. 1Th 5:6 ¶ <blockquote>Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;</blockquote> but let us watch and be sober. Mt 24:42; 25:5,13; Ro 13:11-13; 1Pe 5:8 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. Lu 21:34,36; Ac 2:15; Ro 13:13; 1Co 15:34; Eph 5:14 When the Apostle Paul refers to "Sleepers" in chapter 4 verse 13 he is referring to the same "sleep" that He is referring to in chapter 5 verse 6. In other words <blockquote>a person can choose weather or not to be in the condition called "sleep"</blockquote> as He refers to it in these verses. Which of course means that this is not referring to death - which invalidates the Rapture theory. This knowledge in these verses does this by showing us that the Rapture was never the intended subject in the first place. The subject being address was the way in which God will deal with the so-called "sleepers". That way is this - God will eventually get through to those "sleeping" and cause them to wake up. Brian admin on "Rapture?" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=24#post-127 Sat, 16 Feb 2008 13:51:00 +0000 admin 127@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ I'm afraid I have a hard time following your logic on this Brian. I don't see through all that how you "disproved" the rapture. There is no question that 1 Thess 4 refers to an event that will happen in a dramatic way, but the debate surrounds whether the church will be removed at the point for what Dispensationalists call the "Great Tribulation." admin on "a challenge to credo-baptists" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=25#post-126 Sat, 16 Feb 2008 13:47:17 +0000 admin 126@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ @razzendahcuben: I read and responded which is waiting approval. I wouldn't worry to much about that polemic as it was less than impressive. I've heard far better polemics on the Presbyterian position than that one. razzendahcuben on "a challenge to credo-baptists" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=25#post-125 Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:57:30 +0000 razzendahcuben 125@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ <a href="http://reformedapologist.blogspot.com/2008/02/baptists-truly-divide-christs-church.html" rel="nofollow">http://reformedapologist.blogspot.com/2008/02/baptists-truly-divide-christs-church.html</a> This fellow is a pretty astounding Presbyterian thinker, as even a cursory analysis of his writings will reveal. Nevertheless, Chris, though we've interacted very little I am aware that you are well-versed in the Reformed Baptist position. If you could offer a response to this post (preferably on his blog since he could respond) I would be very interested in what you perceive to be the flaws in his arguments. At present I am a Baptist trying to work my way through the arguments for and against the Baptist position. Thanks. brmicke on "Rapture?" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=24#post-122 Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:10:57 +0000 brmicke 122@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi folks - Most people will try furiously to prove this wrong. Especially trying to disprove the comments involving the reference to the word "they or them" in 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Unfortunately what has for generations hidden this doctrine from the pastoral world is the chapter seperation between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5, and a general lack of personal study. Now please place yourself in the mind of a minister who has preached the "Rapture" doctrine for 20 years. Your Kid's may be in college and need tuition money. The refutation of the popular "rapture theory" will of course mean you will lose your position in your denomination. You will have to either take the kids out of college or make other arrangements. Not to mention house payments etc. Know that such a man when confronted with this choice can convice Himself of whatever He needs to -- in order to survive in the way He wants to. In such a case most Pastors are very capable and genuinely eager to convince themselves that the "rapure" theory is correct. This is even after irrefutable scriptural evidence to the contrary. Notice also -- Matthew 23:6. |5368| they love |5037| and |3588| the |4411| first couch |1722| at |3588| the |1173| suppers, |2532| and |3588| the |4410| first seats |1722| in |3588| the |4864| synagogues, 7. |2532| and |3588| the |0783| greetings |1722| in |3588| the |0058| marketplaces |2532| and |2563| to be called |5259| by |0444| people, |4461| Rabbi! All of the prestige accumulated over a lifetime of ministry will be forefit in the eyes of the public if you choose to adopt the Biblical perspective mentioned above. No more public adulation! Instead you will be labeled a "false prophet" and you will be shunned by even your most dearly held Christian friends. If you courageously change your thinking and rely on the Bible for your theology instead of the traditions of men you will at that point in time genuinely know what it means to be persecuted for righteousness sake. The religious world will not only try and crucify such a pastor - they will succeed --just as they did Jesus. See how little the world has changed in 2000 years! Would you change your long held understanding of the Bible if this were proved to be scriptural. Well -- this is the problem that is descending upon many ministers in the churches today. All the various doctrinal misapplications are being recognized as mental manipulation. Sadly -- Most pastors will not change. Even more tragic is the fact that impressionable young Christian minds will be warped through their blind adulation of charismatic ministers who fit the description of those in Matthew 23:6 and 7. For those of us who will want to rush out and tell the veteran pastors that they are wrong. Mt 13:29 But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them. Remember this - the way we touch even the least of our brethren is the way we touch Jesus Himself. Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me. (ASV) As you can see it is quite a delicate problem to administer the truth to decieved Christians. Remember that Christians are not magically transformed -- they are --- Ro 12:2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Brian brmicke on "Rapture?" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=24#post-121 Wed, 06 Feb 2008 23:47:22 +0000 brmicke 121@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Rapture Smapture Paul is seen in 1 Thessalonians 5:6 to counsel His students to avoid sleep. Does this mean that to be a faithful Christian we are to give up sleep? Yes – at least the kind of sleep Paul is referring to in these verses. -- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 5:6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. This type of “sleep” is then the type that causes a person to not be alert or sober. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 refers to people who are asleep and the same sleep is referred to in 1 Thessalonians 5:7. The subject is the state of those people called the “sleepers” and that subject has not changed as the transition is made from chapter 4 to chapter 5. The proof that there has been no change in topic is seen as the word “them” is used in 1 Thessalonians 5:3. The use of this word suggests a continuation of the conversation concerning the group of people mentioned in chapter 4. This means that the “sleep” referred to is actually the sinful condition of some of Paul’s fellow Christians. This same “sleep” is likened to being “dead in Christ” in 1 Thessalonians 4 verses 16. This can be called being dead in sins and transgressions, Ephesians 2:1. The terms "dead" and “dead in Christ” link 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52. This sleeping condition is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51 and 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 16. The method of change from “sleeping” to being “awake” is alluded to in these verses. That method is attention directed towards the sound of the “Last Trumpet”. The Lord descends in the sound of the Last Trumpet. At the same time the person's glance is directed towards the sound of the “last trumpet”. 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 make reference to the Lord descending. He descends in a moment – in a glance of the eye – and in the sound of the last trumpet. Jesus is the first and the Last. He is the personification of the sound of the Last trumpet, Revelation 1:10-18. -- New American Standard Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, -- New American Standard Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 1 Corinthians 15:52. |1722| in |0823| a moment |1722| in |4493| a glance |3788| of an eye, |1722| at |3588| the |2078| last |4536| trumpet. |4537| will trumpet |1063| For, |2532| and |3588| the |3498| dead ones |1453| will be raised |0862| incorruptible |2532| and |2249| we |0236| will be changed. 1 Thessalonians 4:16. |3754| Because |0848| himself |3588| the |2962| Lord |1722| with |2752| a word |1722| of command |5456| by a voice |0743| of an archangel, |2532| and |1722| with |4533| a trumpet |2316| of God, |2597| will descend |0575| from |2772| Heaven, |2532| and |3588| the |3498| dead |1722| in |5547| Christ |0450| will rise again These verses show the reader how a person “changes” from a corruptible state to one of incorruptibility. By implication this is also the method whereby so called “sleeping Christians” can “Wake Up”. This is really becoming apparent to most believers. It is a glance towards Jesus and adherence to His words, similar to what happened with the Apostle Peter in the stormy sea, Matthew 14:30. To literally interpret an obvious “parable” is to read the bible through the eyes of the unlearned Christians or unbelievers. We don’t have to guess as to whether or not these verses are expressed in parabolic language. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51 that this information is expressed in a “mystery” or parable. A parable is a “mystery” or message expressed in Tongues, 1 Corinthians 14:2 and Matthew 13:14. This shows us that Paul intended the reader or recipient of this letter to understand that he was veiling this information in a “mystery” and not speaking literally. -- New American Standard 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, -- New American Standard Matthew 13:13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. -- New American Standard Matthew 13:14 "And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, `You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; A literal interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 distorts the meaning of these verses in order to suggest what is commonly called a “rapture”. A mystery or parable is intended to allow believers to understand and to hide the true meaning from unbelievers and unlearned or "ungifted" believers, 1 Corinthians 14:16 and 23. If the verses in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 are referring to the same “sleep” then it is apparent that the sleep referred to is that of being willfully involved in sin. In 1 Thessalonians 4:15 the group of “sleepers” is contrasted to the group who has remained in the coming or “presence” of the Lord. The word translated “coming” can just as accurately be translated as “presence” as is shown in the following definition from the Strong’s concordance. 3952. parousia parousia, par-oo-see'-ah from the present participle of 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, “presence”. This being the case, Paul would be saying in 1 Corinthians 15:51 that all Christians will not willfully fall into sin and forsake the “presence” of the Lord. All Christians however, regardless of their being "awake" or "asleep", will be changed towards incorruption through their attention to the Lord Jesus Christ and His words. To understand these verses a few adjustments in translation must be made and the basis for these adjustments must be understood as accurate translation. As the verses which require alternate translation are studied the reasons and the accuracy of the new wording will be shown to be equally as accurate as the original translation. A person should understand that the translation from the Greek is not exact. Each word can be translated accurately and defined accurately by several English words. When looking closely at the verses in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 beginning at verse 13 we can understand the following - -- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. Paul is writing to His brethren and encouraging them not to grieve over those who are "asleep". The first term that needs to be defined and explored in this context is “asleep”. Verse 14 further defines those who "sleep" as “the Christians who have fallen asleep in Jesus”. So we know that these people were Jesus followers before they fell asleep. -- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. We also now know from verse 14 that God the Father will do to those who “sleep” just as He did with Jesus. This is evidenced through the use of the phrase “even so” which means “in like manner”. -- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. The Greek word “Coming” in verse 15 can be accurately translated as “Presence” as is seen in the above reference from the Strong’s concordance. The word “until” is generally translated as the English word “in” as is seen from the following reference - 1519. eiv eis, ice a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:--(abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to), ...ward, (where-)fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively). With these valid adjustments in translation verse 15 can now accurately be read as follows --- -- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain “until” (In the) “coming” (Presence) of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus are separated and made to appear distinct from those who have “remained in the presence of the Lord”. Those who are not in the “presence” of the Lord are those people referred to as having “fallen asleep” in Christ. So to summarize what has been said so far -- there is one group who has remained in the presence of the Lord and one group who has forsaken the presence of the Lord. -- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Verse 16 requires that the reader remember that Paul is telling his brethren why they should not grieve concerning those who have fallen asleep. The Lord will descend and deal with the brethren who “sleep” in Christ and have not remained in Jesus presence. These are described by the contemporary term of “backsliders”. They will ultimately “rise” after the Lord has intervened in their lives. There is of course a method in which Jesus deals with these “sleeping Christians”. That method is described in 1 Thessalonians 5 verses 2 and 3 as the "birth pains" or “travail” which occurs during the “Day of the Lord”. Here it is necessary to understand what Paul meant when He spoke of “rising”. Paul’s understanding of “rising” is seen in Colossians 3:1. -- New American Standard Colossians 3:1 If then you have been “raised up with Christ”, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. This resurrection is clearly seen to be a progression as is understood from Paul’s statement in Philippians 3:11-13. In these verses Paul states with reference to the resurrection from the dead that He had not yet attained it but continued to strive towards it. This striving is happening in Paul's life on earth and the resurrection spoken about happens while a person is on earth. Christians are described as being “risen” when they seek the things above where Jesus is seated, Colossians 3:1. It is seen that Christians begin their resurrection from the dead at conversion. Throughout their lives they should continue to strive towards the fulfillment of that resurrection. This is a resurrection from the condition of being dead in sins and transgressions. A person described as being “asleep” is now seen to be Christian who has not remained in Jesus presence. This person requires divine intervention to “wake up” or stop sinning. They have not continued to seek the things, which are, as Colossians 3:1 suggests, “above where Jesus is seated”. Jesus intervention is necessary to help them continue what is called the “resurrection” from the dead or the first resurrection. The new term introduced at this point is “wake up” or “awake”. In this context the state of being “awake” is seen to be one where a person does not dwell in darkness, 1 Thessalonians 5:5. Darkness in this verse is not a literal absence of the sun’s light, but the spiritual sinful condition of being separate from the light of Christ, John 8:12. This same thought of being in darkness can be expressed as a person who is not in the light of Jesus “presence” and not seeking the things that are above. -- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 5:5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; -- New American Standard John 8:12 Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." It becomes clear that these people who “sleep” are not those who are physically dead but are those Christians who have not remained in the spiritual condition called the "presence" of the Lord. They have fallen “asleep” or fallen back into sin. Keep in mind that the "Coming of the Lord" is accurately translated "Presence of the Lord". This understanding prevents many misunderstandings in this area of Christian doctrinal interpretation. Paul tells His brethren in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 not to grieve over those, which are asleep in Jesus, as they would grieve over those who have no hope. In other words He tells them not to consider the backsliders to be in the same hopeless condition as that of the hopeless unbelievers. God will “raise” the “sleeping Christians” or as 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “bring” or “bring forth” those sleepers. The word bring can and is translated as “bring forth” (Strongs word number 71) in two instances in the KJV. 71 agw ago ag’-o a primary word; ; v AV-bring 45, lead 12, go 7, bring forth 2, misc 5, vr bring 1; 72 The term “bring them forth with Jesus” refers to God helping them progress in their spiritual resurrection just as He physically raised Jesus from the dead. Philippians 1:6 illustrates what is happening and being described in these verses from 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians. -- New American Standard Philippians 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it "until" (in or during) the day of Christ Jesus. God is finishing the good work that He began in the lives of the backslidden brethren by initiating the “retribution” or the judgment of the “Day of the Lord”. The fallen brethren will be perfected or made incorruptible and brought forth into the resurrected life of Christ as a result of this judgement. This is more clearly understood when seen from the perspective of 1 Corinthians 11:32. -- New American Standard 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world. To further identify this so-called “sleep” notice that in 1 Thessalonians 5: 6 the brethren are encouraged not to “sleep”. Paul encourages the brethren not to sleep as those who are "dead in Christ" do. The admonition keep themselves from “sleeping" suggests they have the choice of whether to sleep or remain awake. It becomes clear then that the aforementioned “sleeping” Christians would have previously and “willfully” chosen to go to “sleep”. The word “willfully” is very important and pertains directly to the way in which Jesus will descend to deal with these sinful Christians. Paul tells the people who are awake and in Jesus presence (the obedient Christian’s) that the brethren who are sinning are not in a hopeless condition. He is saying that God will teach the sinning brethren not to sin. In scriptural terminology this refers to bringing about their resurrection from spiritual death. The Christians who (as 1 Thessalonians 4:15 suggests) have remained in the presence (Coming) of the Lord are instructed not to “prevent” or “stand in the way of” or “discourage” those Christians who are “asleep”. Sinful Christians are not to be condemned by the faithful followers of Jesus. They are to be gently corrected as we are told in Galatians 6:1. -- New American Standard Galatians 6:1 Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. Below is the definition of the Greek word translated "Prevent" in the King James Version of the Bible(KJV). 5348. fyanw phthano, fthan'-o apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at:--(already) attain, come, prevent. It is very important to understand that Paul is relaying a "command" from the Lord Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Jesus is saying that the faithful Christians are not to hinder the repentance of the sleeping brethren. Since the Lord (through the Apostle Paul) issued this "command" so assertively we can (possibly) make the following assumption. Some of the Christians of that time period were reluctant to let their sinful brethren return to the fellowship, even after they had repented. The believers of that time period had trouble forgiving their sinful brothers and sisters, just as contemporary Christians do. New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until (In) the coming (Presence) of the Lord, shall not precede (prevent or Stand in the way of) those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Those that are dead in Christ are said to “rise” first. This resurrection must take place before something can happen. This “something” that must take place first is their resurrection. After their resurrection occurs or more properly “is resumed” (since they were in Christ before they fell asleep) they can then join or meet their brethren in the presence of the Lord. Those referred to as dead in Christ will first rise (rise from being dead in transgressions and sin) and then they will join those that have faithfully remained in the “presence” of the Lord. They will not join their brethren in the “presence” of the Lord until they have stopped willfully sinning. Why must they “rise” first before they can join their brethren who have remained in the presence of the Lord? A person cannot dwell in the “presence” or Coming of the Lord while they are “asleep” or while they willfully remain in a sinful condition. -- New American Standard 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (seized) together with them in the clouds (Spirit) to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. They will meet the faithful followers who have remained in Jesus “presence” in the “Air”. The “air” is the domain of the one called the prince of the power of the air as Ephesians 2:2 illustrates. -- New American Standard Ephesians 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. The word “air” shows that this happens during this lifetime and while we are susceptible to the influences of the “prince of the power of the air” in other words, the devil. As to this sinful condition of “sleep” being a “willful” condition consider the following – Right after Paul tells the faithful brethren not to stand in the way of the “sleeping” or sinful brethren He then goes into a discussion concerning the “Day of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5. The Day of the Lord is a time or period of recompense. It becomes clear that the willfully sinful brethren will be brought back to the “presence” of the Lord through the correction or recompense visited upon them during the time of recompense, 1 Corinthians 11:32. This recompense is designed by God to cause them to do what is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52, “change or make progress towards incorruptibility ”. The sinful brethren will “rise” as they gaze at or fix their spiritual eyes (or attention) upon Jesus. As the Lord descends upon these sinful Christians He deals with them through judgement in order to correct the corrupt behavior. This judgement of the “Day of the Lord” is described after the question about the Dead in Christ is addressed. This shows us that the “sleep” has been willful sin because the Day of the Lord (or the time of judgement) is to be expected only after a Christian “willfully” sins, Hebrews 10:26-27. This concept of willfully sinning is contrasted with the person who accidentally or ignorantly sins. -- New American Standard Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27. but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. During the time or period of recompense called the “Day of the Lord” only Jesus Christ will be exalted or considered acceptable. Everyone else will be humbled. Jesus will be the standard or measuring rod against which others will be judged. Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. Thus ends the rapture – smapture discussion. Th – Th – That’s all folks! brmicke on "Grace vs. Works" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=23#post-120 Wed, 06 Feb 2008 23:45:20 +0000 brmicke 120@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi Folks -- I have written two new Articles as you can see this is number one. Please feel free to comment if you are so inclined. My e-mail address is at the bottom of the linked page. Thanks brian Grace vs. Works? The argument between works and grace is deceptive and is not an actual doctrinal position but a clever way of discounting the need to understand the true biblical principles involved in the superimposition of the nature of Christ Jesus. The commonly accepted thinking is based on a misunderstanding of Ephesians 2:8 and similar verses. -- New American Standard Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; To understand this doctrine there must first be a correct understanding of the doctrine of Baptism. The purpose of this article is to illustrate the relationship between works and salvation and not to go into depth regarding the doctrine of baptism. To be very brief regarding baptism the following definition will suffice for the purposes of this article. Baptism is an immersion into something. Being baptized into Moses was an immersion into the teachings of Moses and a similar immersion into the doctrines of Christ is the truth behind the sign of Christian baptism. This Baptism does not bring about salvation but baptism is the way a person appeals or asks God to give them what is promised. When a person submits to Christian baptism or immersion into the doctrines of Christ they are considered to be in Christ. This baptism is a lifelong process of following and being washed with the word of God as His will is revealed in the Bible. The goal of this baptism is the superimposition of the nature of Christ upon the believer. This baptism is called repentance from sinful behavior and it is granted to an individual by God when the person asks for it, Acts 11:18. -- New American Standard Acts 11:18 And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." Surprisingly the powers or authorities in the Church would generally have the individual believe that this does not involve work. In a stark contradiction to the church instruction, the bible itself instructs Christians to work out their salvation. It appears obvious that there needs to be some adjustments to mainstream doctrinal positions. The reality is that a person has to do some work to gain eternal life. When most teachers read the verses that refer to a person “not” working for their salvation they are getting two concepts mixed up. Both concepts are correct but become mixed in a person’s mind. One scriptural concept says that mankind cannot become like Christ by their own effort. This is unquestionably true. The second biblical concept states that a person must work out their salvation. This is also unquestionably true. The part of the process that is missing is found in 1 Peter 3:21. -- New American Standard 1 Peter 3:21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, The baptism or immersion into the doctrines of Christ, can be called “obedience” or working out our salvation. The works themselves, which are in keeping with obedience to Jesus, represent the believer’s appeal to God for a clear conscience. The Father is the only person who can give a person a clear conscience. Mankind is not capable of transforming Himself into a Christ-like person. God transforms a person by enabling them to keep the covenant, which is based upon Jesus Christ dying in our place. God transforms a person “if” they ask Him for His help in this matter. This “asking” is an appeal for God’s help and God mandates that the way a person appeals for a clear conscience is to keep the covenant. Now it is contradictory to say that mankind must keep the covenant to get God’s help and then in the preceding paragraph to write that man cannot keep the covenant without God’s help. The key to understanding this is to remember that a provision of our covenant with God stipulates that a person must confess their sin to God to be forgiven. So if a person recognizes and confesses their behavior as sinful they will be forgiven up to seven times seventy times a day. There are some that think that repentance is required before a person can be forgiven. This is incorrect because the ability to keep the covenant and not sin is an ability given by God. It is like putting the cart before the horse to say that a person must be sinless before God will help them. What God requires is that a person recognizes and confesses their previous behavior as sinful as 1 John 1:9 states. After confession they are then considered sinless and God gives the ability to abstain from ungodliness. As 1 John 1:9 puts it, God will upon our confession forgive us and –“cleanse us from all unrighteousness” or teach us not to sin. -- New American Standard 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If every sinful tendency has been confessed to God and recognized as a sin then the person can truly say that they have a clear conscience and they know of no sin that is against them. Now there is a train of thought in the Christian world that states that a person is saved and their past present and future sins are forgiven. This is incorrect as Hebrews 10:26 shows. If a person sins after coming to a knowledge of the truth they can expect judgement. Past and present sins can be forgiven when they are confessed. However if a person sins in the future they must confess that behavior as sinful in order to be forgiven and a person cannot confess today their future sins, which they have not committed yet. The only way a person can have a clear conscience and still be truthful is if they have not done anything wrong. Christ forgives the past sins and the present sins can be forgiven through confession, future sins are not forgiven because they have not happened yet. Now - returning to the subject of ‘works” and the application of the preceding explanation to that topic. As 1 Peter 3:21 says the immersion into Christ or being baptized into Christ is a definition of the “works” that are in keeping with obedience. These works of obedience comprise the appeal of the believer for a clear conscience. The works of obedience to Jesus commands (baptism into Christ or being baptized in the name of Jesus) are an appeal to God. The person is being obedient and this obedience is the method to request that God give them the ability to keep the Law of God and not sin. When they are sin free they can be said to truthfully possess a clear conscience if they sin again they must of course repeat the confession process. Being Christ-like means being sinless and possessing a clear conscience. Being baptized into Christ speaks of the works involved in keeping the covenant and confessing sins after they happen. In conclusion --- a person must work for salvation and that work is the way a person appeals to God. It is the way a person asks God to transform them into a Christ-like person who does not sin. The “work” called “confession of sins” does not and cannot transform a person. This is however a part of the covenant and when this confession has happened the person then is truly without sin and can honestly be said to have a clear conscience. At this point God answers their appeal and helps the person by giving them the ability to abstain from sin in the future. In this way the individual can obtain the ability to stop sinning as the grace of God teaches them to abstain from ungodliness, Titus 2:11-12. -- New American Standard Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present Anonymous on "Sola Scriptura" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=12#post-118 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:02:15 +0000 Anonymous 118@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Simon, I deeply appreciate all of your words in this post! I am Catholic and hold true to the teaching of the church. One thing that gets me most is when people try and claim that I am not Christian. I agree 100% that your views of the teachings of the Catholic church are taken was out of context. I thank God for the softness you have in your heart for your brothers and sisters in Christ! It is so refreshing to hear your perspective:) It shows that you truly have a love for all of Christ's children. The only other response I have to this forum is this. "14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." -James 2:14-26 admin on "LDS Talk On the Nature of God" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=21#post-117 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 03:17:48 +0000 admin 117@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ (This is a response to <a href="http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,00.html">the following talk</a> at the recent LDS General Assembly.) There Was No Trinity Doctrine Before Nicea There are many early churches fathers ante-Nicea that held such a doctrine, and I found a <a href="http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinityquotes.htm">list</a> of them.  One of the most engaging was Tertullian (160-215 AD): <blockquote>"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).</blockquote> I found it interesting that he didn’t bother to substantiate his rather bold claim (among a few others) when quite a bit of church history is antagonistic towards his claims. Cited Passages What confused me the most was his choice of passages to use in his apologetic (which he said in the beginning wasn’t necessary, but he spent 14 min giving an apologetic).  I don’t see how Jesus praying to his father makes the idea of the triune nature of God incomprehensible.  I see the trinity doctrine as clearly stating that they are three persons sharing the same essence as one God.  Here is a quote I find helpful about the trinity in light of male/female roles: <blockquote>"The commonality and equality of nature shared by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is even greater than the commonality of nature shared by two human beings. For in the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each possesses the identically same divine nature. There are not three natures, but one; there are three persons, each of whom possesses the identically same divine nature fully and eternally. And yet there are eternal role distinctions among the members of the Trinity. Therefore, just as the role distinctions characterized by relationships of authority and submission do not compromise the complete equality of the triune Persons of the Godhead, so is this the case with us, who are made in God’s image. Men and women are fully equal in essence, worth, value, and dignity, even thought God has ordained that there be male headship in our relations in the home and in the church. Equality of essence does not conflict with distinction of roles. In God, and among us, both must be embraced and honored." (Bruce Ware, Father, Son, & Holy Spirit: Relationships, Roles, & Relevance (pg. 139))</blockquote> The Protestant and Catholic view is indeed one of mystery (to which I will not deny), but it is based on a scriptural tension that needen’t attempted to be rationalized (if one believes in the inerrancy of the texts at hand). <ul> <li>The Father is God (John 8:41), The Son is God (John 1:1), The Holy Spirit is God (1 Corinthians 3:16)</li> <li>God is one (Mark 12:29).</li> <li>Therefore (from 1 and 2), God is Triune.</li> </ul> How do Mormons interpret all the passages that speak of the oneness of God? Confusion on the Embodiment of God <blockquote>"Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ." - Holland</blockquote> No Christian denies that Jesus had a body and that he has one now.  It is not a question.  The question is whether the other members of the Godhead had a body.  How does a Mormon make sense of the incarnation if Jesus had a body beforehand?  It couldn’t have been an incarnation then!  What was Jesus’ state before incarnation but one that was without a physical body?  I think it is clear that the doctrine of the incarnation is taught in the Scripture as being something unique from the Father and the Holy Spirit. brmicke on "The Second Coming and the Day of the Lord" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=20#post-116 Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:04:06 +0000 brmicke 116@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi Perry - I think I found the problem. I have found that as I type the web address if I transpose the letters in the word angelfire I go to the porn site. I have tried it twice now and if I mistakenly type "Anglefire" instead of "Angelfire" I go to the porn stuff. So I think what the porn people have done is co-opt a web address that is very similar to the word "angelfire". Sorry I must have transposed the letters in my link. again I apologize - and thanks for making me aware of this I will be more careful in the future to type in the correct address. Brian brmicke on "The Second Coming and the Day of the Lord" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=20#post-115 Wed, 04 Jul 2007 01:54:54 +0000 brmicke 115@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi Again Perry - Well I just typed in my site address and got the adult content link -- I have to investigate this a little, this has never happened before tonight. I am very sorry and apologize. Brian brmicke on "The Second Coming and the Day of the Lord" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=20#post-114 Wed, 04 Jul 2007 01:52:19 +0000 brmicke 114@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi Chris- Quote – I would say that that theological position is rather dangerous. The Second Coming must be seen as a physical, bodily event where Jesus returns, all are resurrected, and the judgment happens. Unquote – Why must the Second Coming be considered this way? After His crucifixion (This is the first coming in Heb 9:28) Jesus appeared to his disciples for 40 Days. So were these appearances the first coming? In a word “no”. So the appearances to His disciples have to do with Jesus Second Coming. Your statement about the traditional theological position is of course what most people at Bible colleges teach. I know that if you adopt this position the vast majority of Christian leaders will readily accept you. On the other hand if you even attempt to challenge these thoughts they will without a doubt have arguments with you. Who thought that traditional opinion up, and why do people accept it without question? The first time that Jesus comes into a person’s life happens when they repent of unbelief as Peter tells the Israelites in Acts 3:20-21. Your entire comment (which I quoted) is based upon Acts 1:11 specifically it is based upon the words ”in like manner”. Jesus came back to them after His crucifixion. The disciples saw Him ascend into heaven so he must have descended from heaven to be with them. All that can be definitively said concerning Acts 1:11 is that Jesus would be seen or perceived as having come down from heaven. Acts 1:11 does not say that Jesus will physically come from a cloud. It simply uses the words which are translated as “in like manner”. The whole system of the Second Coming as you referred to it assumes that there must be a point in time where all humanity looks up into heaven and sees Jesus descend from a cloud. This is as I said based on Acts 1:11. This contradicts what Peter says in Acts 3:19-20. There are just two chapters in between the seeming contradictions of Acts 1:11 and Acts 3:20. Do you suppose that Peter did not understand what the Second appearance of Jesus would entail when He spoke the words of Acts 3:20? Just as the number 1 is followed by the number 2 – I plainly see that Jesus came once and that first coming is identified in Heb 9:28. It is clear that after the first appearance the next appearance must be the second. I have decided to recognize what is recorded as historical fact as having fulfilled the promise of scripture – Jesus came to the Disciples after his crucifixion. We have been given the record of Jesus coming to his disciples after He originally bore our sins. I understand this to mean that the Bible promises a Second Coming and then shows Jesus fulfilling that Second Coming. Hi Perry -- I am very sorry I had no idea that the link had been corrupted. If you remember could you please send me the specific link to my personal e-mail. <a href="mailto:brmicke@hotmail.com">brmicke@hotmail.com</a> In the mean time I will go over my links to find the problem. My site is hosted for free by Angelfire so I may have to take it up with them. If you could send me specific information it may be helpful to them as well. Yes - I do believe that Jesus was physically resurrected and ascended to the Father. I feel however that the judgement is on earth and during our lives as this verse suggests-- -- King James 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. I feel that we are judged and recieve a recompence for our deeds while we are in this body. This must happen for us to learn from the judgement as 1 Cor 11:32. -- King James 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. If this referred to a final judgement there would be no period after for us to recieve the retribution in the body as 2 Cor 5:10 alludes to . Thanks - brian PSPoteet on "The Second Coming and the Day of the Lord" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=20#post-113 Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:46:52 +0000 PSPoteet 113@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Brian, Do you believe that Christ was physically resurrected and ascended to the Father in heaven? Also, do you believe that there will be a final return of Christ where he descends from heaven to judge the living and the dead? Also, did you know that the link to your website links to material of explicit adult content? I have removed the link from your post until you are able to edit the page and remove any such material. psp admin on "The Second Coming and the Day of the Lord" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=20#post-112 Tue, 03 Jul 2007 03:09:59 +0000 admin 112@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Brian, I would say that that theological position is rather dangerous. The second coming must be seen as a physical, bodily event where Jesus returns, all are resurrected, and the judgment happens. That is Paul's main emphasis in 1 Cor 15. His point is that if Jesus was not raised from the dead then we will neither at his second advent. It is a basic, Christian doctrine that Jesus will return bodily at the end of the age to consummate his kingdom. brmicke on "The Second Coming and the Day of the Lord" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=20#post-111 Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:58:34 +0000 brmicke 111@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi Folks – I would like to ask for your evaluations on some thoughts I have concerning The Day of the Lord and the Second Coming of Christ. I am not asking this to convert you to my way of thinking. I am seeking constructive criticism so I can get better at defending what I think. If I can’t defend my thinking then I will know that I need to adjust my beliefs. I feel that that the Second Coming is the conversion experience, and that all subsequent visitations from the Lord are for the purpose of helping us work out our salvation through a refinement process which is called the "Day of the Lord" in which we are judged or evaluated based on our conformity to Jesus Christ. 1. Heb 9:28 tells us that there are two reasons for the visitations “comings” of Christ. The first would be to bear sins. The Second reason for Jesus visitation relates to our salvation. In Acts 3:19-20 Peter says that Jesus would be sent upon repentance – thus fulfilling the requirements of Heb 9:28. Those requirements being that he came once to bear our sins when He died on the Cross then Jesus comes to the individual a second time when they repent from unbelief. The other opinion I would ask people to comment on is the “Day of the Lord”. My opinion on this is that the “Day of the Lord” is a point of Judgement as it pertains to the individual person. Only the Father is aware of when this judgment will occur. The judgement can either be good or bad. I believe that the apostle Paul was attempting to illustrate this to His students when He gave them the choice of His coming to visit them with a Rod or with gentleness as is seen inthe following verse – -- King James 1 Corinthians 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness? Also the example in Malachi regarding the “day of the Lord” suggests this as well. When describing the “day” Malachi suggests that this is a time of “refinement”. -- King James Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. This refinement is for those who “delight in Him” as verse 1 illustrates. -- King James Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, <ul> whom ye delight in</ul> : behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. Malachi then goes on to speak to what the “day” will be for people who “do not fear Him” as verse 5 suggests. -- King James Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, <ul> and fear not me</ul> , saith the Lord of hosts. Thanks - Brian admin on "Doctrinal Differences" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=15#post-110 Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:02:33 +0000 admin 110@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Wait, I thought we were talking about another passage (i.e. Mark 7:27-29). My bad. brmicke on "Doctrinal Differences" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=15#post-109 Wed, 27 Jun 2007 20:36:39 +0000 brmicke 109@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi Chris -- I think I am understanding where our difference lies. Mt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you. This verse has an obvious hidden meaning, since a disciple of Christ would not actually give knowledge to a literal dog or animal. Since the referance is spiritual in nature - I have applied the understanding suggested in previious posts concerning the followers of God being described as "Spiritual Jews". In that case every person who is not deserving of that which is "Holy" could be described broadly as not being "Spiritual Jews". They could be called "unbelievers". In that case both the persons described as "Dogs" and "Swine" could be considered any person that is not Spiritually clean or Holy, or anyone who is not a follower of Christ. So weather they are called "gentiles" or "Dogs" or "swine" matters little. All of these definitions of a person could be considered non-believers in the Spiritual sense of the verse. Is that where our difference lies? If I am right - you are thinking of a "Dog" or "Swine" not as an "unbeliever" but as a non-Jew in an ehtnic sense. I feel however that since the verse is an obvious illustration meant to be spiritual in nature and not a literal example, it should be spiritually interpreted. Since the verse implies the giving of knowledge to an animal in a literal interpretation - and this is not possible. Then I must conclude that the verse is a Spiritual illustration which calls for a spiritual interpretation. Brian admin on "Doctrinal Differences" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=15#post-108 Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:53:41 +0000 admin 108@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ You said: > "when the pearls of the knowledge of the kingdom of God are given to unbelievers (dogs)" brmicke on "Doctrinal Differences" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=15#post-107 Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:27:04 +0000 brmicke 107@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Good Morning Chris - Yes - I know that it means gentiles. Why would you think that I thought otherwise? We really must think differently - I can't even guess why you would think that I would think that it meant "Jews". Please tell me a little about your theological positions and what you were thinking when you wrote your last posting. I truly can't understand this. Thanks - Brian admin on "Doctrinal Differences" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=15#post-106 Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:49:02 +0000 admin 106@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ @Brian: In that passage "dogs" means Gentiles as opposed to Jews. brmicke on "Doctrinal Differences" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=15#post-105 Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:16:26 +0000 brmicke 105@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ One More thing -- Keep in mind what is going on here --- the Large Picture -- per Jesus own words. Mt 13:11 And he answering said to them that--`To you it hath been given to know the secrets of the reign of the heavens, and to these it hath not been given,Young's Literal translation. Parables are by design meant to hide something. God knows that the entire world is going to read the bible - He has however kept the knowledge of His reign or kingdom for only His people and even then some of it is reserved for the spiritually mature or fullgrown - 1Co 2:6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought: American standard version If God showed the true interpretations of Parables to most Pastors they would tell all the unbelievers as a means of getting them into the church building. La 1:10 The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: For she hath seen that the nations are entered into her sanctuary, Concerning whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thine assembly. According to the the verse above the people who should not have been allowed into the the house of God (or assembly) had been allowed in. God did not like this. Those people who were charged with this responsibliity of keeping the Assembly pure - were of course the Priests or pastors of the day. Jer 51:51 We are confounded, because we have heard reproach; confusion hath covered our faces: for strangers are come into the sanctuaries of Jehovah's house. God Has told us (Christians) not to cast our pearls (knowledge of the kingdom being included) before swine - or they would trun and rend us -- Mt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you. As a result of the so-called inclusion doctrine of political correctness - Christians allow Homosexuals to become Ministers etc. Ps 79:4 We are become a reproach to our neighbors, A scoffing and derision to them that are round about us. This is what Has happened to the Chrurch because of this - Pr 23:9 Speak not in the hearing of a fool; For he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Ps 79:4 We are become a reproach to our neighbors, A scoffing and derision to them that are round about us. Christians are a reproach to most unbelievers because we have cast our pearls before swine. No wonder God uses parables to conceal His truth - even from His own people when the are not fullgrown. Hiding information about the kingdom of God is done for a reason - that is why God uses Parables. That reason being so that the church is not seen as a joke. Which is what happens when knowledge is spread abroad -- or when the pearls of the knowledge of the kingdom of God are given to unbelievers (dogs). Brian brmicke on "Doctrinal Differences" http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/topic.php?id=15#post-104 Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:39:02 +0000 brmicke 104@http://forum.imperishableinheritance.com/ Hi Perry - I am wanting to continue our conversations and since you asked this I will try and address it. You may be thinking that the Dry Bones are utterly dead people. According to the example that is true. However --- You are forgetting that the bones did not begin as dead dry bones - bones indicate that there was a person there originally. Before they became dry bones they were the nation of Israel. This is where the two conversations we are involved in may become linked. For now however, I am not going to intermix the ideas. This is only a response to the dry bones question - I am not getting into the bigger question of Spiritual Israel versus physical Israel - even though there could be obvious overlapping thoughts. So -- If bones existed then they were originally living people that Had died. Now these people were Israel (God's Chosen people). However they had died their "hopes had dies as verse 11 shows". In your question you may be thinking that these dry bones represent completly innamate things. Which may be true - however these inannimate things (bones in this case) had a past. As God tells us they represent the nation of Israel (His people) whose "hope in God" had died. So these previously living people were not unafilliated spiritaully when they were alive. They were not pagans. The bones represent God's people (previously alive) whose hopes had perished. Further we see that the nation of Israel, even though they are a group of people or a nation in actuality, their behavior was generalized and their behavior represented as one person speaking of the common problem with the entire nation. That one person was then quoted as saying our "Hope had perished". Eze 37:11 And He saith unto me, `Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; lo, they are saying: Dried up have our bones, And perished hath our hope, We have been cut off by ourselves. So within the parable God is explaining to us that this is a representation of living people whose "hope had perished". In the parble the dead bones are representative of living people who had tried to follow God but had lost hope. So the resurrection also would have to be a Spiritual resurrection since it referred to the reinvigoration of God's living people. So this is the partial interpretation or explanation of the parable -- I have to go and get ready for my daily activities now so I will have to leave off there. As you will find in your future dealings with the Body of Christ - they as a a group tend to like to interpret the parables of the Bible. It is colorful and provides fuel for disputes. Many times however they do not use the criteria that God has laid out within the parable as a foundation. In many cases I have seen that people like to interpret parables using as a foundation for that interpretation -- their own personal interpretation of another parable. Trying to be too smart and show forth their excessive spiritual accumen. They try to link different events from different parts of the Scripture together using parables as the linking factor. Instead of doing this they should try to explain or interpret the initial parable on its own merits. God is of such immense ability that most parables are complete revelations in themselves. A Christian should take the time to understand the initial parable without adding to it. The initial parable is not incomplete and does not need human help in delivering its hidden meaning. Most times the key to interpreting the parable is within the parable itself. As you may be thinking the ability to understand parables is a gift from God - and in my way of thinking it is called the "interpretation or explanation of a message in Tongues". The key thing to remember is that these dry bones had a past - and that past was the past of being God's people before they died. Brian